Pigeon River & Beyond - Back Country Horsemen, Michigan

should back country horsemen of pigeon river and beyond  help defend a fellow equestrian that received a civli infraction for camping at the off site camp 6 with horses?  There were no signs that stated horses were not allowed.

so the equestrian set up camp and filled out a permit and placed it on a tree. Then  mdnr officer pulled into the can site  upon  setting up time and  pulled in and pulled out of camp, but no communication took place . The next day a fire officer approached the equestrian camp and notified the users they were not allowed to camp there. So the equestrian voluntarily offered to leave and immediately packed and left. Then 45 days later a ticket  arrived in the mail.

what do you think?  do you support this equestrian or not?

jackie at September 14, 2010 at 11:05 PM

should back country horsemen of pigeon river and beyond  help defend a fellow equestrian that received a civli infraction for camping at the off site camp 6 with horses?  There were no signs that stated horses were not allowed.

 

so the equestrian set up camp and filled out a permit and placed it on a tree. Then  mdnr officer pulled into the can site  upon  setting up time and  pulled in and pulled out of camp, but no communication took place . The next day a fire officer approached the equestrian camp and notified the users they were not allowed to camp there. So the equestrian voluntarily offered to leave and immediately packed and left. Then 45 days later a ticket  arrived in the mail.

 

what do you think?  do you support this equestrian or not?

Jackie,  The PRC use order was signed in May of 2008, it prominently stated that no horse camps would be allowed in the out camps in the PRC.  This order is still in place,  it was to be reviewed this spring, they have offered the possibility of reopening camp 5 and camp 15, but the order has not at this time been changed.  This information has been flowing in the horse pipe line, and the equestrians have been asked to please follow the rules, so as to not make waves and cause more problems. 

 If these campers were not from timbucktoo, they should have been aware of these outcamp closures.  With the PRC being in the forefront of the legislation that has been being worked on the the past two years, why would someone go to the PRC and not be "very careful of where they were and what they were allowed to do"?

These are exactly the kind of things that got us  (equestrians) in trouble in the first place.  Not following the rules.  We all have known of the closures,  so why "test the system"?  Why can't people be patient and wait until they get the notification that things have been re-opened for their use?

If an equestrian was camping "within the current laws" and got in trouble, that would be a totally different story, but in light of the facts that almost everyone knows of the trouble in the PRC, I personally think that anyone who tests the waters up there is on their own.

marieta davis, montgomery, mi  MTRA:PR&B BCH:MRMHC:RMHA

Dear Jackie,

Regarding your plea for a response to whether or not PR&B-BCHMI should help with the civil infraction situation at the PIGEON>

There is no other person who has questioned the progress of the Pigeon River State Forest than you. Repeatedly, I have given you what information I had on the rules and regulations. Again in May of 2009 you asked about camping regulations on National and State Forest lands and I again stated to my knowledge what is in effect specifically stating : I quote:

"As far as camping....all they have said all along is that we are able to camp anywhere and everywhere on state land except for Pigeon River State Forest......as long as you are 1mile from a horse campground.....place your permit on the tree and have fun! Just make sure you are 1 mile or you will receive a hefty fine!"

How much clearer could I be? Again a month or so ago you once again asked the status of the Pigeon. I told you that we are working on negotiations and that ETS will need to review the area and until the Director changes the Land Use order things still stand as of May 08, 2008.

I personally went out to Camp #6 one week before this infraction took place(Aug. 21) and signs were there big as life. If the signs were indeed gone-it would seem logical to me to question first the authorities and get permission to be protected for this very thing.

With such a battle that we have been waging to try and correct what is happening in our state-going against the rules do not help matters-only gives more fuel to the DNRE for continuing to keep things status quo! Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to something like this.

What exactly would you like Back Country to do to help with this situation? Have you or this person who you speak renewed or hold a current membership with PR&B-BCHMI? I am just one man trying to make a difference-the same with all our members. We are trying to make a difference in this state. We are very busy people and do not have the time to fight every battle that comes along.

 Each one of us must be held accountable for our actions-when that happens good things are accomplished.

Dick

thank-you very much for all the reponses and I appreciate all opinions in this matter. This is why we live in the United states the land of the free and still have freedom of speech. I also know that it took a lot  of hard work to get where we are today. I want to thank everyone that has worked and spent endless hours of time and their own money to get where we are today.

I do have to repond to a few things that were stated from previous post. First I do not appreciate the assumtion and hidden attitude that lies within some of the reponses. The first  public general meeting  to start back country horsemen of pigeon river and beyond a lot of promises were made. I believe the cowboy lawyer  and board members stated that if anyone got a violation in the pigoen river area  they would fight for them. I did not hear in this statement anything about being a paid member of back country horsemen of pigeon river and beyond. I  do beileve it is very important to support bch , but you do not know economically if that is possible at this time.

I have e-mailed you occassionally and asked about the camps being open but  please do not assume that  everyone is current on this issue.

 I am also appaulded at the discussion of the posted sign on camp 6#, you basiclly hint around  with your words that this issurer would have tore it down. I do not know how the sign got taken down but I do know that it was not there at the time of camping.

I also want to state that I want to help all equestrian users and  save their rights not just paid bch  members. I believe all people should be treated equally not just the people that can afford to be a members.

I  cannot believe that bch is again not uniting all these user groups but being only self serving in their causes and issues.  I did not think this was bch mission. 

we all know  that if this was a board member or the "inside click " this would not be a issue but bch would stand behind them.

jackie

This is an interesting discussion. 

Jackie - you and your sister were at early meetings and even attended committee hearings in Lansing. If someone camped in a no-equestrian camp site, and they were at one of the early organizational meetings, they would have knowledge of the on-going situation so why would they even go there to begin with?

 If someone said he/she would defend violators, then you should get in touch with that person. PR&B does not have any attorneys on staff that do that. In fact, PR&B can barely pay the bills it does have, since everyone is hurting financially and it seems few people can afford $25 ... (yet many people want to be kept informed...).

So far as any "click" (clique) - the only one I know of consists of those people who take time off from work and donate time and energy to participate in meetings, expo booths, selling T-shirts and raffle tickets, attending hearings in Lansing or teleconference calls.  Staying informed.

Just because there are no signs, does not mean the law has changed.  Here in Lapeer State Game Area there are no signs that say no horses or snowmobiles... but the law says it.

 I guess I may not understand what it is you expect from PR&B, but so far as PR&B defending an equestrian in a civil suit in court - that's way beyond what the organization is about.

I hope for a successful outcome for you and your sister. 

The wheels are turning VERY slowly - and the trails committees are way behind schedule - but hopefully, by next year there will be more campsites and OFF-road riding in PRCSF.

This is an interesting discussion. 

Jackie - you and your sister were at early meetings and even attended committee hearings in Lansing. If someone camped in a no-equestrian camp site, and they were at one of the early organizational meetings, they would have knowledge of the on-going situation so why would they even go there to begin with?

 If someone said he/she would defend violators, then you should get in touch with that person. PR&B does not have any attorneys on staff that do that. In fact, PR&B can barely pay the bills it does have, since everyone is hurting financially and it seems few people can afford $25 ... (yet many people want to be kept informed...).

So far as any "click" (clique) - the only one I know of consists of those people who take time off from work and donate time and energy to participate in meetings, expo booths, selling T-shirts and raffle tickets, attending hearings in Lansing or teleconference calls.  Staying informed.

Just because there are no signs, does not mean the law has changed.  Here in Lapeer State Game Area there are no signs that say no horses or snowmobiles... but the law says it.

 I guess I may not understand what it is you expect from PR&B, but so far as PR&B defending an equestrian in a civil suit in court - that's way beyond what the organization is about.

I hope for a successful outcome for you and your sister. 

The wheels are turning VERY slowly - and the trails committees are way behind schedule - but hopefully, by next year there will be more campsites and OFF-road riding in PRCSF.